FORCES Tavern: We welcome you to The Tavern, you are welcome to browse and read, but please register to post.

I should have posted this sooner...

If you so choose, place your introduction here, and again - we do Welcome you to FORCES. Also, please note that The Tavern has a LIVE CHAT feature, just click on the link above!

I should have posted this sooner...

Postby PageOfWands » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:52 pm

Hi,

I'm a 20-something smoker from Maryland, with a left-leaning libertarian view point. I started smoking recently, as a way to relax quickly from a stressful job, and it worked!

Conformity scares me, whether the pressure to conform comes from religion, corporations, or worst of all government. The forced conformity of government smoking bans, and anti-smoking education in schools, combined with the corporate dollars pushed towards getting everyone hooked on pharma makes me a natural pro-smoking advocate.

I delete 95% of everything I type, so I might not be too talkative, but I read lots and contribute when I have something important to say.
PageOfWands
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby Ariel » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:57 pm

Glad you finally posted! Welcome!
Ariel
 
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:22 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby WinstonSmith » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:19 pm

Welcome, PageofWands.

And don't delete that stuff. Post it here!
User avatar
WinstonSmith
Trusted Activist
 
Posts: 1418
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby jredheadgirl » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:38 am

Welcome PageofWands! I agree with Winston. Don't delete, post here:-)

Woo hoo! A Left leaning Libertarian! .... a rare breed. :D

I think that we've all got a bit of Libertarian blood in us around here.
jredheadgirl
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:42 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby WinstonSmith » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:27 am

jredheadgirl wrote: Woo hoo! A Left leaning Libertarian! .... a rare breed. :D


The rarest political breed, in fact.

How does one define "left-leaning libertarians" versus "right-leaning libertarians"?


I have my own answer, but I'll save it for the time being. Maybe someone will change my mind. Like PageofWands.
User avatar
WinstonSmith
Trusted Activist
 
Posts: 1418
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby jredheadgirl » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:59 am

WinstonSmith wrote:
jredheadgirl wrote: Woo hoo! A Left leaning Libertarian! .... a rare breed. :D


The rarest political breed, in fact.

How does one define "left-leaning libertarians" versus "right-leaning libertarians"?


I have my own answer, but I'll save it for the time being. Maybe someone will change my mind. Like PageofWands.


Hehe... I so expected a comeback question like this from you Winston:-) In fact, I was thinking about you when I thought about it. Let's leave this one to PageofWands.. As for myself, all I know is that I don't know. :lol:
jredheadgirl
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:42 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby infinitethoughts » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:50 am

A warm welcome to you, Page.
User avatar
infinitethoughts
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:34 pm
Location: Kalifornia

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby PageOfWands » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:40 pm

Thank you all for the warm welcome.

In answer to Winston:
As with any political or philosophical term, there are probably as many definitions as there are people who use it. To me, left-leaning libertarian means that I believe that the government should be as small as possible. Where it's not possible to eliminate the government, laws that are needed should be written in such a way that they recognize the equality of all people, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion, even at the expense of traditional ideals. I think that it's a good thing for our society to be more tolerant of differences from the status quo, even if I don't believe that tolerance can or should be legislated.

I've found right-leaning libertarians feel that were laws are needed, they should be faithful to "traditional values."

Not a huge difference, to be sure, but that's why I'm "left-leaning libertarian" and not "liberal."
PageOfWands
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby WinstonSmith » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:54 pm

Thanks, PageofWands.

Right leaning libertarians as traditionalists? Perhaps. I guess some of the Ron Paul/Tea Party crowd might fall into that category. I consider myself a right-leaning libertarian, but I'm not overly concerned with traditional values. I guess it depends on what one means by "traditional values".

I always think of left-libertarians as being more collectivist than right-leaning libertarians, but against government interference.

I so expected a comeback question like this from you Winston:-) In fact, I was thinking about you when I thought about it.


I plead guilty. I really just wanted to give PageofWands an opportunity to post. Just trying to keep things interesting. :D
User avatar
WinstonSmith
Trusted Activist
 
Posts: 1418
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby jredheadgirl » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:59 am

WinstonSmith wrote:Thanks, PageofWands.

Right leaning libertarians as traditionalists? Perhaps. I guess some of the Ron Paul/Tea Party crowd might fall into that category. I consider myself a right-leaning libertarian, but I'm not overly concerned with traditional values. I guess it depends on what one means by "traditional values".

I always think of left-libertarians as being more collectivist than right-leaning libertarians, but against government interference.

I so expected a comeback question like this from you Winston:-) In fact, I was thinking about you when I thought about it.


I plead guilty. I really just wanted to give PageofWands an opportunity to post. Just trying to keep things interesting. :D


PageOfWands-

Great post! I relate to a lot of what you're saying.

Winston-

You always keep things interesting:-)

Woo hoo....running out to have some wine before the New Year kicks in.

Happy New Year to everyone here if I haven't already said so:-)
jredheadgirl
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:42 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby Ariel » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:36 pm

I suspect that the difference lies in the word "conservative" -- as in conserving the status quo, slow to act -- versus ummm... maybe "progressive"? Let's say that as a libertarian you want gub'mint to just leave you the heck alone -- but you know they won't. So since they aren't going to leave you in peace, and must do SOMETHING -- whaddya want them to do? I think conservative/right/libertarians might say "just stop right here". Codify things as they are -- just don't make it worse. Progressive/left/libertarians (that's an odd label) might say -- "if you MUST do something -- try to make things better for someone".

Like health "reform". The whole system sucks, but as a right-leaning libertarian, I'm convinced they can only make it worse. I can;t see any other possibility. So "do nothing" is my second choice (after "dismantle what you've done") . A left leaning libertarian might feel that perhaps if they must do something they can make it better than it is (for "the poor"?)-- although t'would be best of all (first choice) for the government to never have become involved?

Ya get my meaning? Or am I just babbling?

But I liked Winston's answer too -- perhaps collectivist in personal social philosophy, but not politically.
Ariel
 
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:22 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby smallbird » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:16 pm

Maybe it's like socially "liberal" but fiscally "conservative". Do the best you can within your budget. :?
User avatar
smallbird
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Southeastern Washington

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby jredheadgirl » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:03 pm

smallbird wrote:Maybe it's like socially "liberal" but fiscally "conservative". Do the best you can within your budget. :?


That's exactly it Smallbird. It's simple really. ....Socially liberal in the sense of being against the state having the right to deny gay couples from marrying, for example...or against putting people in jail for smoking pot..against being forced into someone else's religious dogma....against some government official (or religious group) dictating to a woman about reproductive issues.....against smoking bans (anyone who is for all out smoking bans is not socially liberal, even if they think that they are). Socially liberal means (or is supposed to mean) tolerance and minding your own business. Ironically, many of us (from my perspective) who have always been socially liberal used to be more fiscally liberal as well, though I think that that's changing amongst many people like myself. When I see people voting for illiberal laws like smoking bans on private property, I begin to move further away from fiscal collectivism and closer in ideology to free market capitalism. The change has been so dramatic in fact, that now I'm reading up on Ayn Rand..hehe... Life is a trip. I dunno, the more I live (and learn) I start to realize that the free market has a hell of a lot in common with social liberalism because its whole concept is about allowing the individual to develop him or herself, which benefits everyone collectively in the end.

That's my definition of a Left leaning Libertarian, though I hate labels of any kind:-)
jredheadgirl
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:42 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby PageOfWands » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:35 pm

I was trying to stay general in my answer, but jredheadgirl hit it on the nose. She pretty much rattled off my profile. Except I still can't quite bring myself to read Rand. I'm not against free market by any means, I think it's great for many reasons, but Rand just gives me the creeps.
PageOfWands
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: I should have posted this sooner...

Postby smallbird » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:58 pm

jRed! You hit my philosophy right on the nose! And you say it WAY BETTER than I could.

Thank you! :D
User avatar
smallbird
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Southeastern Washington

Next

Return to Introductions Section

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron